A Song of Time and Space and Ice and Fire

157 notes

Serious question

patredbru:

onceuponawesteros:

patredbru:

rubbady-pubbady:

I never said you ‘don’t get to feel/see’ anything. You can do whatever the hell you want. If you see something you don’t like, then you see it. It’s when people start to force whatever they see onto other people who clearly don’t and then call them supporters of ‘rape culture’ which gets my panties in a twist.

The term ‘rape culture’ actually fits better with Swan Queen considering Regina is the only canon rapist on the show and I’ve seen a lot of SQ fans trivialise Regina’s rape of Graham or pretend that it wasn’t rape because she’s a woman and he was a man. These are behaviours which are actually a massive part of rape culture and yet these same fans will throw accusations towards Captain Swan. How can you possibly see these problems within CS when you can’t seem to see them within your own ship? 

I only got involved in this post because of a quote you made that I restated above. You said Emma said ‘no’ more than once which never happened at all. In fact she invited him to places with her and said ‘I trust him’. She never tried to get away from him or complained about him. He never pressured her to do anything. In fact the whole argument seems to be based on Emma not actually caring and feeling badgered by him to be with him. There were two times in this show when men forced a kiss on Emma, one was Hook trying to get her memories back and she kicked him in the groin and pushed him back and then had him arrested the next day. Graham kissed her and she also pushed him back and said ‘Whatever it is you are looking to feel, I can tell you one thing: you’re not getting it with me’. So Emma doesn’t seem to have a problem with standing up to guys she doesn’t want around her but suddenly her whole character changes in some fans’ eyes when it comes to Hook. Not to mention she’s the one who has initiated no less than three kisses with him so far and in the first one she was the aggressor and smiling and flirting by saying ‘You couldn’t handle it’, in the second she came out to where he was and she leaned over to him and in the third she stepped to him, kissed him, asked him to be patient and he said okay. You seriously have to ignore Emma’s character completely to make an accusation of ‘rape culture’.

Also I’m absolutely sure you see something on the show otherwise why would you ship SQ. I actually do see chemistry between the characters so I say ship to your heart’s content! However, ‘I don’t see things that people haven’t put there.’, you are. The writers and actors have said for two years now that they’re not doing anything on purpose. They never intended Swan Queen to be something at all and they have said it is not going to happen. If they were actually queerbaiting the audience then they would be giving the shippers hope and putting annoying jokes into the show about Emma and Regina being mistaken for a couple or ‘no homo!’ jokes but they aren’t. In fact they have come out and said ‘That’s not the direction we intend on going’. You can ship all you like, enjoy fanart and fanfiction and hope for more scenes between the two but it’s not going to happen. 

Honestly, I was going to read your novel. I was, and then, you posted ‘Regina is a rapist’, and I realized that reading it, responding to it in any substantive way, well, it would be like yelling at a wall. Want to know why?? 

ADAM SAID that Regina isn’t a Rapist. I don’t remember exactly where, on twitter, or in an interview or two. He said that when Regina wasn’t literally touching graham’s heart she couldn’t tell him what to do. She’s NOT, NOT, NOT a rapist.

(Perhaps you should try ‘they’re step-grandmother and step granddaughter’ too?…shoot, wanna talk about bordering on actually being a rapist. Leopold. Gag.)

Ah, but in this argument, authorial intent means nothing (for the record, I don’t take their statements on Captain Swan into account either). Just as you’ve argued above that you heard Emma repeatedly say no to Hook where others (including the closed captioner) did not,  rubbady-pubbady's interpretation of Graham's ability to consent is completely valid. Even more so, IMO, since it's been canonically established (from Graham's own mouth, no less) that heartless victims are unable to feel while it has not been canonically established at all that Emma was uninterested in Hook. Would Graham have had sex with Regina if his heart was in his chest? I don't believe so.

This is the crux of the problematic writing argument, is it not? Because I don’t think anyone is arguing that Horowitz and Kitsis intended for anyone to see the things being discussed here.

Oh, I think that A&E haven’t intended anything since the First Season Finale.

There are two types of show runners.

There are those that go with the flow. If someone works who wasn’t supposed to work they go with it, like Kerry Weaver on ER, she wasn’t supposed to be on the show for 14 seasons, and yet, she was, and at times having her there was utterly and amazingly brilliant.

And the second kind is like the HIMYM team. They had their ending in mind, and even though the ending totally didn’t fit into what the show had become, who the characters had become, they pushed on anyway and the ending was crap to a whole lot of people.

Don’t get me started on HIMYM.

I think that if something is or isn’t working it should be changed. That’s why I don’t understand the “CS is in response to Hook’s popularity” argument (not going to use the term “fanservice” because people keep using it incorrectly and it bugs), not because I necessarily think it’s true, but because I don’t think changing course is always a bad thing. If you stick to a vision mapped out years ahead of time, then you get the aforementioned finale of the show I said I won’t talk about, and I don’t think anyone wants that.

Filed under ouat ouat thoughts himym

26,654 notes

angelicfallacy:

aheartmadeofglitter:

I hear people say “oh my god I hate people” all the time without backlash. everyone knows they don’t hate every single individual in humanity. they have friends and family they love and hang out with. they simply hate the greedy, corrupted, oppressive nature of some human beings.
but the minute we say something about white people or men, no one seems to understand that it’s the same concept.

That’s because humanity is something everyone is on equal ground on.
Race and Gender/Sex is something that can be used as a insult or as fuel for hate or war because we’re all different.

"I Hate People" is not an insult because everyone is a person.
"I hate White People" is an insult because you are targeting a specific group of people, not because what they did, but because of the color of their skin.

Filed under well said

45,338 notes

markruffalo:

aos-skimmons:

so I was thinking that mark ruffalo sounds a lot like mark buffalo, and then i decided that i obviously wasn’t going to be the only one who thought about this. so i typed ‘ruffalo the buffalo’ into google images and i found these…

image

image

image

i don’t know why but it made me happy 

I don’t know why but it makes me happy too.

(via angelicfallacy)

157 notes

Serious question

patredbru:

rubbady-pubbady:

I never said you ‘don’t get to feel/see’ anything. You can do whatever the hell you want. If you see something you don’t like, then you see it. It’s when people start to force whatever they see onto other people who clearly don’t and then call them supporters of ‘rape culture’ which gets my panties in a twist.

The term ‘rape culture’ actually fits better with Swan Queen considering Regina is the only canon rapist on the show and I’ve seen a lot of SQ fans trivialise Regina’s rape of Graham or pretend that it wasn’t rape because she’s a woman and he was a man. These are behaviours which are actually a massive part of rape culture and yet these same fans will throw accusations towards Captain Swan. How can you possibly see these problems within CS when you can’t seem to see them within your own ship? 

I only got involved in this post because of a quote you made that I restated above. You said Emma said ‘no’ more than once which never happened at all. In fact she invited him to places with her and said ‘I trust him’. She never tried to get away from him or complained about him. He never pressured her to do anything. In fact the whole argument seems to be based on Emma not actually caring and feeling badgered by him to be with him. There were two times in this show when men forced a kiss on Emma, one was Hook trying to get her memories back and she kicked him in the groin and pushed him back and then had him arrested the next day. Graham kissed her and she also pushed him back and said ‘Whatever it is you are looking to feel, I can tell you one thing: you’re not getting it with me’. So Emma doesn’t seem to have a problem with standing up to guys she doesn’t want around her but suddenly her whole character changes in some fans’ eyes when it comes to Hook. Not to mention she’s the one who has initiated no less than three kisses with him so far and in the first one she was the aggressor and smiling and flirting by saying ‘You couldn’t handle it’, in the second she came out to where he was and she leaned over to him and in the third she stepped to him, kissed him, asked him to be patient and he said okay. You seriously have to ignore Emma’s character completely to make an accusation of ‘rape culture’.

Also I’m absolutely sure you see something on the show otherwise why would you ship SQ. I actually do see chemistry between the characters so I say ship to your heart’s content! However, ‘I don’t see things that people haven’t put there.’, you are. The writers and actors have said for two years now that they’re not doing anything on purpose. They never intended Swan Queen to be something at all and they have said it is not going to happen. If they were actually queerbaiting the audience then they would be giving the shippers hope and putting annoying jokes into the show about Emma and Regina being mistaken for a couple or ‘no homo!’ jokes but they aren’t. In fact they have come out and said ‘That’s not the direction we intend on going’. You can ship all you like, enjoy fanart and fanfiction and hope for more scenes between the two but it’s not going to happen. 

Honestly, I was going to read your novel. I was, and then, you posted ‘Regina is a rapist’, and I realized that reading it, responding to it in any substantive way, well, it would be like yelling at a wall. Want to know why?? 

ADAM SAID that Regina isn’t a Rapist. I don’t remember exactly where, on twitter, or in an interview or two. He said that when Regina wasn’t literally touching graham’s heart she couldn’t tell him what to do. She’s NOT, NOT, NOT a rapist.

(Perhaps you should try ‘they’re step-grandmother and step granddaughter’ too?…shoot, wanna talk about bordering on actually being a rapist. Leopold. Gag.)

Ah, but in this argument, authorial intent means nothing (for the record, I don’t take their statements on Captain Swan into account either). Just as you’ve argued above that you heard Emma repeatedly say no to Hook where others (including the closed captioner) did not,  rubbady-pubbady's interpretation of Graham's ability to consent is completely valid. Even more so, IMO, since it's been canonically established (from Graham's own mouth, no less) that heartless victims are unable to feel while it has not been canonically established at all that Emma was uninterested in Hook. Would Graham have had sex with Regina if his heart was in his chest? I don't believe so.

This is the crux of the problematic writing argument, is it not? Because I don’t think anyone is arguing that Horowitz and Kitsis intended for anyone to see the things being discussed here.

Filed under ouat ouat fandom rape tw

157 notes

Serious question

patredbru:

catherineisbored:

When people accuse me of shipping something that represents rape culture it really gets to me, i don’t want to feel bad for shipping something, is it getting to anyone else because i can’t ignore that, i can’t, the second someone says it’s involved because i feel SO BAD, because even if i don’t…

SQ fan here. When I say that Hook (TO ME, I will repeat that TO ME) is not a good character, that he represents rape culture I’m not saying that he’s a rapist. Honestly I’m not (although, if you want to get technical, getting a woman drunk and having sex with her, in most states is considered rape if the woman presses charges.)

Rape Culture isn’t a guy necessarily hurting or raping. It’s the not taking no for an answer (not in a having sex way, but in a continuing to pursue Emma even though she said no, over, and over, and over last season.) It’s implying or telling Emma that although she said no she means yes. It’s stalking her. (I’m sorry, I know that it wasn’t supposed to be that maybe, at least in A&E’s heads, but, that Hook watching the Family, that read on the screen as stalking not as cute or longing.)

Rape culture doesn’t equal rape. (If it did every woman in the world would be screwed). Rape culture is what allows those who are predisposed to rape sometimes get away with it scott free. Sometimes literally, sometimes even if they get jail time the media/the public thinking that, it wasn’t their fault, they’re men, or the woman said no but meant yes, or all the many other excuses

Everyone should ship whatever they want to ship. If you like CS that’s great, being passionate (but civilized to other ships) about a ship is some of the most fun to be had on Tumblr! All most of the SQ shippers that I follow/know really want is for everyone in the OUAT fandom (not just CSers) to think about what the Hook and Emma’s relationship says to young girls and boys just starting their journeys in dating. So, it’s okay for a freshman guy in college to assume that even though his fellow college student, a female, is saying no, she means yes? (And I don’t even mean saying no to sex, it can even be as simple as saying no to a date, or to joining an intramural team, or whatever).

I pose one last question, and it’s not an easy question. So, what if every time I wrote man up in these paragraphs I replaced it with child? It would change everyone’s opinions of what we’re talking about in a second, less than a second. So. Why is that? Why if it’s an adult woman can she be given no choice in a situation?

In our case Emma’s the savior right? So, if she’s the savior doesn’t that mean that she has a brain, has been making decisions for many, many years on her own. So then, why when she says No to Hook all of last season, why did she really mean yes? When she says things to other characters she means it, and the script bears that out. So….. why is this one relationship different? Why?

I really appreciate your open, kind response to the OP’s questions, I really mean that. However, could you please provide some examples of Hook “continuing to pursue Emma even though she said no, over, and over, and over last season?” Because I simply never heard or saw her say by word or action either a literal or even figurative “no.” Walking away is not a no. It’s an “I have no answer to give right now.” Nor was her, “I choose Henry” shutting him or Neal down, it was a “I don’t have time for this right now.” And others can say that they interpreted Emma’s actions as a no, and that’s fine, but it does not change the fact that the text never once indicated that Emma was not interested in Hook. Other things, such as inviting him to dinner or waiting for him at the meeting, rather indicated the opposite. What did happen is that they never had Emma outright state her feelings one way or another. This is a device commonly used in fictional works to create suspense. Better writers would not need it, but better writers don’t write for OUaT.

What’s more, I don’t think Hook did much pursuing at all. After her “I choose Henry,” he backed off. After the failed TLK, which wasn’t even done in an effort to get her to give in romantically, but as an attempt to get her memories back, he did not bring up his feelings again. He supported her as a friend and even talked about her feelings as friends sometimes do, yes, but he did not pursue her. So the question becomes, should Hook, knowing he has feelings for Emma, feelings that Emma is also aware of, have stayed away from Emma? He did not keep his feelings hidden, as so many Nice Guys do, and then blame Emma for not accepting him. He did not push. He simply stated how he felt and helped her.

And I love the way they pulled this off, because like you, I would not ship the kind of couple where a man would not take no for an answer. Like you, I believe that would perpetuate the belief that women need to be chased, that women need to be persuaded. That women don’t know what they want and men should decide for them. Unwanted pursuit is a big turn off for me in fiction. Sometimes I wonder if people are perhaps projecting what they expected from this kind of couple and it is coloring their interpretation of events that actually happened onscreen. Because that is the trope, that the “bad boy” falls in love with “good girl” and convinces her to give him a chance, but I would argue that OUaT actually effectively subverted this trope and that neither Hook or Emma really fit the bad boy and good girl molds anyway (note: this is not to say that Emma isn’t “good” and Hook hasn’t been “bad.” I simply mean their characters do not fit into that particular trope).

As to your question, I wholeheartedly agree that the attitudes sometimes presented about men and women in fictional narratives are harmful. It’s also harmful to me, as someone who knows what it means to live in a culture of victim blaming and rape acceptance; as someone who knew what the term rape culture meant long before I ever came to tumblr, to see it appropriated by people (not everyone, but a good amount) who do not understand it, who do not know what it really means, that simply use a serious subject as an argument to win notes on the internet. It’s harmful for me to see the people who should be helping spread the message using it instead as false evidence to shame people for supporting a ship. On a griping note, it’s annoying to me to see people assume that all CSers are ignorant of these issues, that all CSers are blinded by a pretty toy, like we ourselves are children. I am not a child. 

And as long as reasonable people like yourself align themselves with those I’ve just described, as long as they twist things to suit other objectives or non-canon interpretations, we will get nowhere.

Filed under ouat ouat fandom

2 notes

anewlifeanewway asked: Ahhh I've missed you!! Haven't seen you on my dash for a bit!

Aw, I missed you too, friend! I’ve been busy lately and didn’t feel much like tumblring. How have you been?

57 notes

Why can’t he be all of these things (except for the homewrecker part which I disagree with)? I don’t see the disconnect. Is it only people who are 100% in the right that are deserving of sympathy? if so, I’m going to have to cross a lot of people off my sympathy list.

Why can’t he be all of these things (except for the homewrecker part which I disagree with)? I don’t see the disconnect. Is it only people who are 100% in the right that are deserving of sympathy? if so, I’m going to have to cross a lot of people off my sympathy list.

(Source: confessuponatime)

Filed under ouat ouat confessions

19 notes

I haven’t forgotten. OP, OTOH, seems to have forgotten that most reasonable people don’t think that a woman leaving her husband and son, even in a cruel and devious fashion, is enough reason to not pity her over her untimely murder. I suppose in OP’s world, Rumple’s feelings were hurt, so murder and maiming were totally justified.

I haven’t forgotten. OP, OTOH, seems to have forgotten that most reasonable people don’t think that a woman leaving her husband and son, even in a cruel and devious fashion, is enough reason to not pity her over her untimely murder. I suppose in OP’s world, Rumple’s feelings were hurt, so murder and maiming were totally justified.

(Source: confessuponatime)

Filed under and most likely this person is one of the people preaching morality to others what a joke ouat ouat confessions

191,324 notes

krustybunny:

lesbiangrandmas:

randomfandomteacher:

heretical-hypothetical:

artigosaurus:

queen-of-dork:

i-am-a-cat-eins-zwei-drei:

debisanacronym1:

WHY ARE NONE OF YOU FUCKERS FLIPPING SHIT?!?

NASA HAS DECLARED PLUTO A PLANET AGAIN

IT HAS MOONS!!!!! IT HAS MOONS!!!!!!!

WHAT. WHAT! PLUTO YOU FUCKING DID IT!

VIVA LA PLUTO, YOU DID IT!!!

THE UNDERDOG

I can’t find a source. Does anyone have any? I won’t believe it until I get a source.

SOURCES
HERE

VIVA LA PLUTO!

(via aloha-4-ever)

Filed under yes!!!!